The Commander Series Forum

Guys,

Had a great game of Ia Drang Valley a few weeks ago. A question came up but was not resolved:

If 2 Air Assault Helicopters are both within range of multiple AA/SAM/HQ’s can both helicopters be shot at by all of the AA/SAM/HQ’s? In other words, can an anti-aircraft unit make an attack on multiple targets in the same turn?

Your help would be appreciated.

John

There were 3 Vietnam combat veterans of the 8 players. One was a USAF pilot, one US Army Artillery and one US Army infantry. The pilot claimed that the AA units should not be able to engage multiple targets. The Army guys didn’t care either way!

It is an unclear area...but - one flight, of however many machines may be engaged by all the the triple A that can see it. However terrain blocks line of sight, so they cant be engaged over a wood or BUA.

Next but - the AA can engage each incoming flight with full value, with the caveats above.

So you have a flight of 12 Slicks (a Btn Lift) coming in total all the AA which can engage and divide by 12, each bird takes that number of attacks. If the had an armed escort that would be a separate flight, of say 3 aircraft then repeat the process.

Hope that helps

IanS

Ian,

Thanks for your reply. However, can a Flight be broken up? I worry that this could be gamed by a player who claims 12 Slicks are one Flight. Then, they drop off a few Slicks at various LP’s across the board.

John

The way the rules are written you could never get 12 slicks on table as it's -1 per extra chopper base. I tend to ignore that. Of course the flight can be split, each LP would be a separate flight, and attacked as such.

IanS

Ian, the flight of 12 slicks could, presumably, be a scheduled asset entering the table on a particular turn. If they were broken up into, say, 4 flights of 3, then each successive flight could be fired at by any unsuppressed AAA on the table with line of sight, regardless of whether they fired at a previous flight. Pays to suppress AAA with artillery before attempting a helo insertion - a use for forward fire bases?

I thought we played it that you selected which weapons fired at which aircraft - rather than totalling them and averaging, as not all AAA may be able to see all aircraft in a flight.

Andy

Was following Marks interpretation on the Pendraken Forum. If you play the rules strictly the Choppers are an airbounrne insertion and dont appear over the table at all, which is very silly.

I'd use the FWC on-table Gunship rules - which is what we use when we play the big CWC games.

So you could start with them off-table (e.g. deployed as mobile deployment) on the table edge and then order them to move on as if they were an ordinary on-table unit (so no -1 per unit as they are not conducting a 'strike') - you can even have an HQ in one of the Slicks, so this keeps the command distance pretty constant, as the HQ is deemed to move with the Slick it is carried by (again this is an FWC rule to allow commanders to be carried in drop-ships and massive walkers).
As the Slicks start off-table they would be subject to any Air Superiority damage rolls (unlikely for Vietnam) and once on table they can be shot at by enemy AA when they get in range of it. But otherwise you treat them as other on-table units, so they can move (& fire as they are bought with stabilized weapons) under Commanded Orders. They are considered to be airborne at the end of the movement phase unless specified that they have landed. They can conduct Initiative actions and assault actions like other IFVs.

You need a Deploy action to land and de-buss your passengers. If you get caught on the ground you can be hit by area fire and be shot up by ground based units within range and LoS.

Or you can start with them on-table as part of a Mobile Deployment and move them off as a Commanded Order (you could have them on the ground at that point ... which seems reasonable) but again they are subject to enemy AA (& also ATWG attacks - but only from dedicated ATGW units - not the likes of Saggers on BMPs).

We played it this way with my 82nd Airborne when we played the Southern Front game, a few years back and it worked very well. Likewise we used the airstrike (insertion) version (again using the FWC drop-ship rules) at Grimsby last year for the VDV assault on the Norwegian airfield. That was less successful because the Soviet commander ordering the assault was over 8 feet away, so the deviation dice were catastrophic for the VDV ... but you live & learn!

On the issue of LoS for AA - I'm now of the view that we have been playing LoS wrong for quite some time (or rather it doesn't work as it should do). I think the FWC methodology (especially for airstrikes) works much better than in BKC. In essence terrain is to some extent irrelevant as all air-stikes are usually visible at some point as they cross the battle field. So BUA's and woods really do not obscure the AA unless they are really high hills/mountains or the AA is in the wood or BUA.
But I agree with Sediment - it does pay to suppress enemy AA before you bring your choppers on - as the losses can be significant as a dead flying choppa is also a dead passenger unit & maybe the HQ gone as well.

Hope that helps a bit?

NB ... CWCII will incorporate the whole of the FWC airstrike/dropship and gunship rules specifically for Helicopter warfare. Just as we've been playing it in the big Cold War Commander games.

Sorry Aelerons - I missed answering your original question.

Totaling up and averaging is one way of doing it.
However it has disadvantages where you are mixing up different types of AA with different ranges. But where you have a larger number of units on-table, it works better.

Personally I'd use the 1:1 approach for smaller numbers (your 2 Slicks) in this example.

What you cannot do is concentrate all the AA on one enemy unit, leaving others alone. Even with modern comms this just doesnt work in practice. So if you have 2 choppas and 2 AA you can divide them up (on a 1:1 basis) if 3 AA then you can either total up and average (but again this isn't fail-safe as you can end up with odd numbers) or do a 2:1 and 1:1, but if you have 3 choppas and 2 AA, then averaging is the way forwards.

Does that make sense?
Thanks

Big Insect,

It answers the question and clarifies that ALL a/c Flights can fired upon by ALL aaa that are within range and LoS of the LP. But if we adopt the FWC aa rules that all a/c could be seen by aaa units except those behind a mountain/hill, the USAF vet will flip!!

Thanks for the info.

Best regards.

Here is the address for the AAR of our Ia Drang game on May 14th.

sjgaforum.discussion.community

Enjoy!