The Commander Series Forum

Hey,

First post, woo!

I'm rather new to CWC, and I'm working on a late-40's / early-50's French armoured Battlegroup.

I'm going for a quirky force of Ex-German Panther (G) tanks and ARL-44s.

But, while complete, the French list in the printed CCW book don't have entries for these two machines.

Would anyone with some experience with these rules fancy taking a guess at their stat-line?

MM.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARL_44


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tan...

Welcome Mr Marx
Not sure about the ARL-44
But for the Panther take the stats from BKC.
Regards
Sean

Panther stats from BKC
ARM move 25. AT 5/80. AP 3/80. CA 4. Hits 6. Saves4. Cost 215. Limit 9. No notes
Hope this helps.
Regards
Sean

Just read the wiki on the ARL-44 not sure it would be worth it only 60 made finished in 1949 and phased out by 1953.
Think the Pattons that replaced them and Panthers would be a better mix.
Regards
Sean

For 1945-1958 simply use US Army material. Tanks, armored cars, just the same. Some vehicles were french (not much), and from late 1950' the AMX-13 and others appeared!

ARL-44 exist only in World of Tanks

Hey,

I've not got BKC - could somone clue me in as to the Panther G?

Thanks for the input - I'm going for the ARLs because they're cool more than anything else. The 503rd operated 60 of them for almost a decade in the early period of the cold war, which makes for an interinteresting force.

Comparing the ARL to the M48, what do you make of this;

Speed 15
Attacks 4/80
Hits 5
Save 4
Points 95

The ARL was slower than the M48 (19 vs 30mph), the armour and gun were the same. The ARL had no Infared. Lower points cost than the M48 due to the slower speed and loss of IR.

MM.

Mr Marx my second post gives you Panther stats.
Regards
Sean

Ah! - So you did. thank you.

Presumably they'll need a little adjustment for CWC?

MM.

"Take the stats from BKC"?

You're right Mr.Marx. Pete didn't set it up to read across - things are thresholded differently in order to cope with massively powerful tanks like the M1 etc with superb armour and long range main gun at one end and still cover the Stuart/Honey at the other end. The stats have been "compressed" if you will. Take the T34/85 stats as an example.

BKC: M25 AT4/80 AP3/80 CA3 H5 S5
CWC: M25 3/60 H4 S5

Hence in CWC the "read-across" has a shorter range and reduced hits.

For the Panther I'd modify it.
In BKC: M25, 5/80, 3/80, CA4, H6, S4

In CWC: M25, 4/60, H5, S4 ?

Okay - going on your advice and a little comparing and research, I've come up with this for the Panther;

M25, 4/60, H4, S4. 85 Points.

What do you lot think?

MM.

Yeah.....

It's either 4 or 5 hits I reckon. Suck it and see?

I thought 4 hits rather than 5 as only heavy tanks look to have 5.

Yeah - Good point.

I'd probably knock the save value up a notch as well to Save 5 - even being decently armoured by WW2 standards doesn't do it much good post war...

140mm of German steel is pretty good - should put it on par with a Perching - which is S4 in CWC.

Although, I'm yet to play a game - so if I'm wrong do tell me.

MM.

Given the tests on German armour showed it to be pretty rubbish by Late War I might not agree!

I doubt it's as good as even an M48 in practice...

Mind, given what the French thought about the Panthers reliability is unprintable, actually getting any to the table is a major victory

That's a very fair point - the quality of German Steel plate did go rapidly downhill towards the end of the war, and from the reports the French don't appear to have been very effective in weeding out the crappier Panthers before pressing them into service.

So;

[b]Panther M25, 4/60, H4, S5. 70 Points. [/b]

That makes the Panther the same as the Soviet T-54, except for the 'Restricted' Note - but I've bumped up the points cost by 5 to compensate for that.

MM.

I'd be tempted to rate them worse than the T-54 as well, but CWC isn't massively granular so if you do they'd end up basically as Stuarts

Otherwise, looks good to me

Okay - have just found out that the French even had a few Jagdpathers!

What do you think they would be, stats wise?

MM.

Much the same as the Panther only with (R)...

The French used the Panther longer than anyone else (including the Germans!), and seem to have considered it pretty much a waste of garage space and little to no use on the battlefield - see Wiki for a quick précis of their feelings...

"The Panther was not considered a strategic tank by the French because of its high rate of breakdown." and "More importantly, its mechanical drawbacks meant that it could not carry out any sustained offensive operations like the German Panzer IV, the Soviet T-34, the American Sherman or the British Cromwell."

If you want an immobile, slow tracking, gunnery blind, broken down pill box that doesn't work then it's a winner. If you want a tank, MOAR SHERMANS.

Edit: Sorry, that probably sounds harsh; it's not meant to be If you want a 'serious' simulation aspect they should be pretty much speed humps, if you want a Wehrmacht '47 fantasy then rate them something like a T-54.

That's probably significantly more fun than playing 'Repair Depot Commander' and then towing them out for the Russians to use as target practice

Sorry to come after the war but if you want the stats of the Panther cannon in CWC, just pick the stats of the AMX-13/75. These two cannons are close.

And ARL-44 was even more worthless than Panther. The 503e RCC didn't stay long with these two tanks...