The Commander Series Forum

Hi all,

Here's a link to an updated version of the West German Bundeswehr list (it also includes some Bundesgrenzschutzen). Dates fixed, some missing kit added and some kit never fielded by the Bundeswehr removed.

I didn't add in the Boxer, Puma, or 2A6, but there is some 90s kit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vko1fthgncng4xd/...

Let me know what you think

Ben

Nice one

Agreed Richard - nice one Ben

Just a few of points for discussion:

With the 2cm, Kraka ATV & 2cm, Wiesel 1 Mk.20 Support Units both appear to gave been used in a dual Ground Support and AA role. Can this be reflected in the list - extra cost for the AA & an additional AA capable note maybe?

We also had a fair debate elsewhere on this forum about the fact that the Wiesel is 'armoured' no matter how thin that armour might be. It will give some protection against bombardment and small-arms fire. So maybe a Save on a 6 is acceptable - although I do like the 'Small Target' designation (like Low Profile in FWC) as I have long thought that the size difference between a Kraka (4x4 quad) and a Leopard II deserves some sort of acknowledgement
NB: Small Target helps the Wiesel v direct fire but not bombardments.

Should the Wiesel Recce have the 2cm 1 MK.20 or an HMG? I have seen photos of the HMG variant in a recon role but not the 2cm. Likwise - was the Kraka 2cm used in a Recce capacity? Or again was there an HMG variant?
I am also interested in understanding if there was a Kraka ATV mounting an HMG in a support capacity - although I can find no photos of this?

You have put the Kraka Milan & RR with a speed of 20cm, when all other Kraka are moving at 30. Not sure which is correct 20 or 30 but it would seem sensible that they are all the same.
NB: I am inclined towards 20cm myself based on what I've read about the Kraka's laden performance.

Also - can you designate which of the Transport helicopters the Wiesel can be carried in & how many can be carried. I think it is the Sikorsky S-58 and 2 Wiesels can be carried, but I'd need to verify that.

Thanks
Mark F

Thanks for the feedback Mark.
I've added in both the Kraka and Wiesel 1 Mk.20 for the AA role, adjusting the effectiveness of the armament and the cost accordingly. I browsed through the forums before adding in the Wiesel, and think that the small vehicle is a good way of adding in the negligible armour. That said, if the M3 halftrack gets a 6 for a save, then the Wiesel definitely deserves that also. I've updated this on the list as well, adjusting the points cost again.

Movement speeds were my error, thanks for picking that up. All Krakas should be 20cm, which they now are.

The Wiesel in the Recce role is the turretless Aufklaerung model, armed with MGs. http://img.bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEM...

The recce turreted BM-208 was a prototype which was never adopted. I've updated the recce Wiesel in the lists, and have removed the Kraka recce version - it appears that the Fsch.Jg. at this time used the VW Iltis as a recce vehicle.

If you download the file from the link above, you will access the updated version.
Thanks again for the feedback, i'm actually going to be painting up the Fsch.Jg.Bn. 251 for CWC when Andy from H&R releases the 6mm Bundeswehr figures, so have been doing a little extra research and have been meaning to revisit this list.

Ben

Wonderful - thanks Ben - this is a sterling service.

I've converted my own Kraka Mk.20 using the 20mm seated AA from H&R, on the H&R Kraka Milan - minus the driver & the Milan.

My own Wiesel Recce are the turretless Wiesel from Scotia with an added H&R MGs. This has an open cabin so is ideal.

I'd like Andy @ H&R to do the Kraka with TOW (although I might get around to converting 2 of these for Grimsby) and also the Kraka RCL, but most of all we need Kraka Cargo with loads. But again I am currently converting the H&R Kraka Milan for these.

I have chosen not to depict my Kraka Cargos seperately from the infantry. I put them on the same base as the infantry as I think they appear not to have been sent away from prepared positions once the infantry are dismounted. I also think it helps distinguish the FJs easily from other infantry.

So they behave a bit like Cth17 dragoons - always mobile, just moving @ 20cm if mtd and 10cm if dismounted. But I add the 10pts to the cost of the infantry for the Kraka.
I just use dug-in markers to depict them dismounted.

Cheers
Mark

Hi Ben

Not sure if you've seen this - but if you are recreating Fsch.Jg.Bn.251 you might find it useful.

https://www.fschjgbtl273.de/index.php

Cheers
Mark

Wiesels were not carried in Sikorsky S-58.

But you could get 2 inside a CH-47D Chinook

You could sling 1 under a UK-60L Blackhawk or a Puma

You can get at least 1 inside a Sikorsky CH-53 G - maybe 2.

Just noting that these otherwise excellent lists carry over the *unusual* CWC ratings for the Leo2 series. In real life the Leo2A4 had the same gun as the Leo2 but better armour (in CWC this is mysteriously reversed).