The Commander Series Forum

Hi everyone,
So after much deliberation, questions on this forum (thanks for those that helped) and general pain I now have what I THINK is a reasonable ORBAT for a 1/300 1985 British Armoured Brigade (7th AB actually). For those that are interested it is about 13,000 points.

Below is the ORBAT with a couple of notes on how I am composing the bases. Any feedback is very much welcome. NOTE: I have not actually played the rules yet, so would appreciate ‘that might work in the TO&E, but not on the board’ or ‘I would do that this way’ type observations in particular. I am interested in people’s views on the organisation/composition of the Armoured Engineer Field Squadron (I can’t seem to get it right and think its now too large?) and the level of air defence (too many MANPADs perhaps?).

Many thanks in advance,
-Sharpe

7th Armoured Brigade:
Brigade HQ: 1 Cmd Chieftain, 1 Spartan, 3 dismounts. (1 base, CO stats).
x3 Brigade FAO: Sultan with 2 dismounts (1 base, FAO stats).
x3 Brigade FAC: Sultan with 2 dismounts (1 base, FAC stats).

Armoured Regiment (1):
Regiment CO: 1 Cmd Chieftain with 3 dismounts (1 base, HQ stats).
Regiment 2IC: 1 Cmd Chieftain with 3 dismounts (1 base, HQ stats).
x4 Squadrons of 4 Chieftains (16 Chieftains in total).
x1 Recce Troop: 1 Scimitar
x1 ATGW Troop: 1 Striker

Armoured Regiment (2):
Regiment CO: 1 Cmd Chieftain with 3 dismounts (1 base, HQ stats).
Regiment 2IC: 1 Cmd Chieftain with 3 dismounts (1 base, HQ stats).
x4 Squadrons of 4 Chieftains (16 Chieftains in total).
x1 Recce Troop: 1 Scimitar
x1 ATGW Troop: 1 Striker

Mechanised Infantry Regiment:
Regiment CO: 1 Sultan with 3 dismounts (1 base, HQ stats).
Regiment 2IC: 1 Sultan with 3 dismounts (1 base, HQ stats).
x3 Mech Inf Companies, each comprising:
- 3 bases of infantry, 3 FV432.
x1 Support Company Comprising:
- x3 MMG (I have assumed no additional FV432’s needed for MMG’s).
- x3 Milan (I have assumed no additional FV432’s needed for Milans).
- x3 Sniper (I have assumed no additional FV432’s needed for Snipers).
- x3 81mm Mortar, 3 FV432’s.

Armoured Engineer Field Squadron:
Squadron CO: 1 Sultan with 3 dismounts (1 base, HQ stats).
x1 Engineer base, 1 Spartan.
x1 Centurion AVRE.
x1 Chieftain AVLB.
x1 Spartan (recce).
x1 FV180 CET (Spartan stats with engineer capabilities).

Artillery Support:
x2 Heavy SPA artillery batteries (each battery has 3 M109 155mm SPAs).
x2 Light SPA artillery batteries (each battery has 3 Abbot 105mm SPAs).

Note: I have assumed 1 battery of support from each artillery regiment available to the division (1st Armd Div if you're interested).
Also, only 9 of 12 guns will be active in any one battle as the M109 upgrade programme was on-going in 1985 and each division had x2 heavy and x1 light regiment by the mid-1980s. But 2 light and 1 heavy regiment was the correct establishment. As such, I have included 6 of each type to allow for either 6 light and 3 heavy or 3 light and 6 heavy in any ORBAT.

Air Defence Assets:
x1 Tracked Rapier.
x8 Javelin Teams, 8 Spartans.

Air Support:
x4 Lynx TOW
x2 Gazelle
x2 Jaguar
x2 Harrier

Looks good. My thoughts:

You have tank troops of 3 Chieftains getting one stand, but you have ATGW troops with 9 Strikers also only getting one stand and recce troops with 8 Scimitars getting one stand. As a suggestion, you might be better off deciding on a single scale factor (i.e. 1:4 or 1:3) and dividing all the real world units by that to get the number of stands. There will always be some rounding required of course.

I'm not sure the MG stands in the Support Coy of the mech inf bn are valid. I'd like to see your evidence that they existed.

3 81mm mortar stands per battalion will rather unbalance the game. Should be two stands I believe representing the 8 81mm mortars.

Got this information from the file section of the TO&E Yahoo Group
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TOandE...


UK Company Level Organisation in the 1980s

Mechanized Company

CHQ: 1 FV432

3 Rifle Pltns:

PHQ: 1 FV432
4 SLR
(1 51mm mort.)

3 Rifle Sect: 1 FV432
8 SLR
1 GPMG
(1 Carl Gustav)
(upto 10 M72 LAW)

Support Company at battalion level includes:

8 FV432+81mm mort., 3x(4 FV432 8 Milan-1/2 & 4 52mm mort.), 8 Scimitar

I would ignore the 52mm mortars and have two FV432 81 mortar sections with three FV432 Milan section and two Scimitars. Also agree with Collins355 about the 4:1 ratio. My British forces are organized that way.

Also British artillery batteries are 8 guns which would be 2 half batteries at 4:1.

Regards,
Bill

Hi Collins,
My evidence suggests 4 Chiefs per troop? But your point is well made. My concern is that if I add a 'scale' then it kind of throws the rules of the game out of whack - especially with recce units?

Do you think 2 scimitars (1 deactivated recce and 1 recce) would work better? 2 Stikers seems sensible and I was hoping someone would pull that out

Thanks for the heads up regarding the 81mm mortars, I shall work on the basis of 2 per regiment (even if this does ruin my carefully planned rule of 3 for the infantry - curses

Regarding the MG's, the 'support coy' is (for the purposes of this ORBAT) administrative. I plan to cross attach 1 MG, 1 Milan, 1 Sniper with each 3 base infantry coy. Also, the MG's are representing gimpy's as well as any heavier MG's.

I have been using this TO&E:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CEcQFjAIahUKEwjR3JWirZ_HAhXJuBoKHVCuC1g&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fireandfury.com%2Forbats%2Fmodcwbritish.pdf&ei=cAnJVdHkEMnxatDcrsAF&usg=AFQjCNGm8OApg9bxNOwso1dvCovm0r5XsQ

however, the website appears to be down at the moment so I cant double check :/

The gimpy is referenced in this (much more detailed, but much harder to read/navigate) resource, but does also add weight to your argument that there may be no MMG in the battalion. When Fire and Fury gets its pdf working again I will double check.

Many thanks, and please keep posting people. Especially with regards to the engineer squadron and the MANPADs.

-Sharpe

Billb,
Thanks for your comment particularly regarding thr artillery - I thought I needed 4 guns per battery and can't find where I read it :(

Do you have a reference?

-Sharpe

I use the Brits as they operate, so a base would be 2 Scimitar, or a rifle platoon, tank troop etc. In the 80's there were no SFMG platoons as such, although they could be organised. Each 432 had an SF kit stowed in it.

8 gun batteries are a late 70's organisation, also adopted by soviet mortar batteries. Again the usage was in troops of 4, 1 firing and one scooting. For an armoured battle group you should use M109's, and the Abbots support the Infantry.

Infantry support weapons could be attached out to the companies, although the mortar platoon may well be centralised.

IanS

For tank regiments, I use 2 Scimitar stands and 4 FV438 stands. Each Co in a mech battalion has an MG stand to reflect the SF role of the GPMG. Not sure about keeping M109s for armoured units and Abbots for infantry as the British Army cross attachment doctrine meant mixed-arms units. Flexible doctrine means British units can call in any available artillery asset - Abbots are great at laying smoke, while M109s can deliver FASCAM and lots of other goodies.

Cheers, Andy

Andy - its what was taught at Warminster. Note that by he 80's any gun in range could be called in, so the batteries were assigned as direct support, giving priority to that battle group, but able to fire in support of any.

ianS

HI Sharpe,

"Ultra Modern Army Lists and Organizations" by Bruce Rea-Taylor. Published by Tabletop Games 1982

The TO&E group also has a complete British Order of Battle for 1984-85 in their files section. It lists the following three Regiments and their locations as being part of 7th Brigade at that time.

7 Armoured brigade, Soltau
3 Queens Regiment, Fallingbostel
Royal Hussars, Fallingbostel
2 Royal Tank Regiment, Fallingbostel

Regards,
Bill

Billb,
Thanks so much for identifying the regiments in 7th AB - I have been cruising the internet for ages trying to find them!

Many thanks,

-Sharpe

For more utd info join the Battle Group Modern Rules Group on Yahoo groups. They are aiming to cover all fightable armies from 1956 onward.

ianS

Hi Collins,
I have re checked my TO&E and your quite right the MG's don't exist in the TO&E for mech inf (nor do snipers actually).

However, I will freely admit to taking a liberty with the snipers and I like sediment I plan to use the MG's to reflect the GPMG in SF role (the rules army ORBAT seems to indicate this is reasonable).

Regards,
- Sharpe

I would have said one stand of MGs (representing a platoon-strength conglomeration) would be more justifiable than three stands.

But I guess you can agree that with your opponent(s) what seems reasonable.

Yes I think your right. But does that mean I also have too many snipers and Milans in the regiment?

I will be reflecting the same principles when I do my Russians so either way it will be even if someone uses my forces.

-Sharpe

Less elements means less to shove around on table, means an easier and quicker game. It's also less costly in lead and painting time!

Although tbh with the rules for ATGW as written you're well off fielding as many as you can - one firing activation per turn makes them a real one shot wonder.

Yes, if you want to give 1980's Brit infantry the chance to use their Milans properly in the game you need to think of each Milan stand as a section rather than as a platoon - most Mechanised infantry battalions would have 6 stands of Milans on that basis and even these aren't enough given their one shot capability.

The problem with having different scales for representing different elements comes with transport. If you've got six+ stands of Milan are you going to use the transport limits of a FV432 as written in the rules, or are you going to say these are only sections so I can fit them all into a single transport vehicle stand.

It all gets a bit messy. Fine if you're solo gaming and know what you want, but not really very good if playing someone else.

I tend to shove the support weapons in with the infantry fighting stands - I normally run one fighting stand per transport and don't worry about them being able to carry two but instead assume there's space for support weapons where needed.