The Commander Series Forum

Hi everyone, had a BKC-II game last saturday and a friend pointed out an old house rules from BKC-I, something like "weapons with an attack value of 1/X cannot shoot at AFV with a save value of 5 or less".

He asked if someone new something like this for BKC-II. I told him, it wasn't necessary since the new AT/AP values, but told me to ask anyway. Does anyone knows this house rules equivalent for BKC-II?

This situation happened because a 20mm Flak-30/38 fired on an Churchill 75mm front ark, one dice, which hit and suppressed the tank.

Any help or comment would be appreciated.

I don't know the house rule you are referring to, but I don't think it's a necessary one. Even a 20mm gun can get a lucky hit that does some damage like smashing a periscope or breaking a track, even though it has no realistic chance of destroying the Churchill completely. If the Churchill was in the open this was a 12:1 shot, if behind a hedge then 27:1 and over 100:1 if it was behind a wall!

Never heard of the house rule you mentioned. But in BKC2, if something has an AT value then it can shoot against armour, even if it's only 1 shot.

It's not necessarily about destroying the target, but suppressing it and stopping it from destroying you!

That's the thing, after the battle a discussion arose, one side telling of the imposibility that in ww2 a churchill platoon could be stopped by a 20mm gun battery.

It's not a thing if the rules in BKC permit it, but if it could have happened. It was undertood that in the war they could affect lighter tanks, but not sure about affecting a churchill platoon.

In my opinion, no rules can be designed to have every posibility, specialy in this scale, and BKC is a very good rule set. And for this scale, BKC is one of the best y know of.

Thanks for the comments.

I was the one that came up with that house rule for BKC 1 as like you I was concerned about light guns being able to suppress/KO heavily armoured tanks. To me this is more apparant when the game represents a section of tanks rather than individual vehicles.

The actual house rule was that the gun 1/x could not remove a hit but still could cause suppression as per MG fire of AFV's.

Adrian

Hi Adrian - so it's all your fault!

Bear in mind Cosorioi that in BKC1 there was no differentiation between AT and AP attacks. In version 2 you get AT which is capable of hurting an AFV.

cheers

John

johnboy, thats what i told in here, now with the different AT/AP columns, it eliminates the possibility to damage an AT with HE guns, or viceversa, damage infantry with AP ammo.

Yesterday i meet with the team again, and i believe i convinced them to keep the rules the way they are and see how it works.

The problem is that some are used to the firing in flames of war and others with spearhead, and they like a ruleset that have a bit of everyone...well, thanks for the comments.

Cristian.

To help your argument:
1. a regiment of french Spahis (cavalry) in a town in 1940 drove off German tanks for a while be sheer weight of rifle and MG fire. Other egs Less likely admittedly with late war heavies like Churchills and better trained crews.

2. inside a tank, you dont KNOW is ONLY 20mm fire, just that there is a lot of high velocity metal pinging off you, possibly decapitaing a commander or two, breaking preiscopes, ripping off radio ariels. Especially in a period like 1944 when chance are IT is a 75/88mm shooting at you that WILL kill you. You might suddenly find that reverse ridge behind you attractive while you work out what is going on/remove the remains of poor Lt Jones from the turret.

Plenty of egs of 'windy' allied tank crews in normandy, italy and the desert...

I overheard two veterans of tanks at Bovington many years ago. One said to the other: "Remember, if in doubt - bail out!"

I've heard of (i.e. someone mentioned it on this forum) Panther crews bailing out afer coming under fire from 6pdrs thinking they were 17pdrs...

In one of the Battleground Europe books (Bluecoat I think) it mentions 75mm armed tanks resorting to firing HE at Panthers etc in the hope the crews would think they were under artillery fire and withdraw.

I too recall reading about using non-penetrating ammo to set fire to stowage. Once the outside of the tank was ablaze and smoke started to get in through vision slits, vents, etc., that was enough to get most crews to bail out in preference to risking being cooked - certainly enough for a suppression I'd have thought.

I agree with both points of view on this thread.
I think BKC is a fantastic game , it got me back into WW2 when it came out and I now have many 10mm armies in my collection.

My only issue on this point is, that because of the differential in CV values ,the better commanded armies end up having a better chance of getting the lucky shot.

German pak35/36 crews will get the lucky shot on the advancing Matildas slightly more often than the the British crews will with their 2pdrs will on the advancing Tigers etc

It's a minor point in a great game