The Commander Series Forum

RAW give the Churchill armour as 6 hits 4+ save throughout the war. Only the Crocodile is different at 3+ save. The way we play it is then to add a MkVII type as a 3+ save (though they are not explicitly listed, but they are a Crocodile without the flamethrower)

On Saturday my German opponent was stunned by how tough the Churchills were! His Panthers couldn't do much to them and the MkVII (as tough as a King Tiger) just wasn't worth shooting at even with 2 Panthers and an 88!

I've done a comparison vs other tanks in the lists and would like to know what people think of this. I'd suggest that Churchill hits and saves might be reduced to:

- Mk I - VI: 5 hits, 4+ save (same as JagdPz IV)
- Mk VII and Crocodile: 6 hits, 4+ save (same as Tiger/Panther)

Comments appreciated.

PS. I'm a massive Churchill fan!

I always thought the Churchill was actually a decently balanced tank considering it is armour over firepower during the earlier years (N.Africa & Italy) while being comparable to a Tiger 1 in the later NW Europe theatres. However it is balanced due the limited number you can field as well as the high point cost, probably to reflect the lack of units available at that time, hence the focus on the Sherman variants.

In my own opinion I would say keep the attributes as they are in the book but remove the "Tough" special rule. As with most heavy tanks it is easier to flank them than engaging them head on, as some one who has lost multiple times to both German and Soviet heavies it is worth a few HP to get in the right position then blast them apart from where they're weakest.

Perhaps instead increase their point cost or reduce the numbers you can take?

We don't play points based games and tend to stick to "historical" type orbats. Hence an Infantry bttn might be supported by a squadron, or 4-5 models.

The Churchills I-VI all had roughly the same level of frontal armour, at just over 100mm. So more than a PzIV (80mm), but less then a Tiger (110mm). The MkVII/Crocodile had the thickness increased to 152mm (flat) all across the front though the flanks remained the same thickness as the preceding marks, this compares to 180mm (partially sloped) on portions of the King Tiger. Clearly this is a simplistic take on things since it neglects the type of steel used and the nature of the joints etc... but you can see my thinking. I like the idea of not allowing them to be "tough".

Perhaps the Churchill is a victim of the granularity of a D6 based system?

In Flames of War the Churchill has various degrees of armour.
[F=Front / S=Side / T=Top]

Churchill III or IV [F=8 / S=7 / T=2]

Churchill IV & VI (NA75) [F=8 / S=7 / T=2]

Churchill VII [F=13 / S=7 / T=2]

Churchill Crocodile [F=13 / S=7 / T=1]

So maybe the current list of unit attributes isn't enough to compensate for the individual different types of tank armour variation as the game is setup for company and division level of play.

I've never played FoW, but that's very interesting.

So they have Churchill III - VI as all the same armour-wise. Odd why they give the Churchill Croc. less "top" amour than the VII. The Crocodile was really a flame kit that was fitted to a VII, so they were identical from an armour perspective.

If it's a "linear" scale then the ratios for MkIV to MkVII of 8 to 13 look about right?

Suspect the lower top armour forCroc is for trailer, you only use it for arty, air and close assault

IanS

Could be. In Firefly you could target the trailer with direct fire - it had its own armour values.

Bah, take all the good stuff away from the Allies why dontcha!

Churchills seem to have been a bit like Tiger I - tougher to knock out than the pure mechanical stats imply. But your reasoning makes sense, sadly...

The mentioned Germans tanks for armour value comparison from Flames of War. Would have posted these sooner but had to dig around my un-organised room for my old copy of Festung Europa. Also included the ridiculous AT firepower these tanks bring the battlefield, however the game has been updated and I haven't been able to get a newer copy of the rules but I doubt the stats haven't changed that much.
[F=Front / S=Side / T=Top]

Panther A,D,&G [F=10 / S=5 / T=1]
[Rate of Fire=2 / AT=14 / Firepower=3+]

Tiger 1 E [F=9 / S=8 / T=2]
[Rate of Fire=2 / AT=13 / Firepower=3+]

Königstiger (Porsche) [F=14 / S=8 / T=2]
[Rate of Fire=2 / AT=16 / Firepower=3+]

If two Panther(s/companies) can't take down a MK7 Churchill there's either a slight flaw in the Germans' AT rating or, as you said, the MK7 needs to be toned down a little?