The Commander Series Forum

Hi all,

Just started playing BKC (have had the rules for ages, but only played a couple of trial games years ago). My group has now started playing again, and had a couple of trial games.

As a result I am not sure that I have not missed something in the rules. SPecifically, the ranges seems rather strange.

Using British North Africa lists as an example, the 3 inch mortar is initially given a range of 80cm. According to my "Handbook of the British Army 1943" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_ML_... this weapon had an effective range of 1600 yards.

You then compare this to the 25 pounder. this has been given ranges of 50 (AT) and 100 (AP). Based upon the mortar that equates to 1000 and 2000 yards, for a weapon that had a range of 12500 yards (handbook and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_...).

This does not seem to make sense, expecially as the 25pounder is a lot more expensive, and as the off-table artillery support version has not range limit at all. I can understand the AT range as that requires direct fire, but indirect fire range should not really matter if the weapon is on table.

Thanks in advance.

Ranges of off table weapons are not considered at all, so that explains nothing for indirect fire 25pdr, which btw has a range of 13600 yds = 12500 m. Direct fire is different. The figures given look about correct for open sights fire, 1000yds/m is approaching the end of the AP shot effectiveness, and the low velocity relatively for the weapon will be a factor. 2000yds/m is approaching the limits of visibility, so for direct fire.

IanS

Hi IanS,

I was quoting the basic ranger without the Supercharge.

So the ranges for on-table guns are those over open sights. i.e. direct fire, would that not suggest that firing indirect (over the top of an intervening hill/wood/friends) should get a longer range?

If the answer is yes, that is the way the rules work that's fine, but I want to make sure I have not missed anything - the old grey matter is not as lively as it used to be!

Thanks

B.

I think the difference in ranges is meant to be doctrinal. Off table 25lbrs are firing indirect and respond to requests from an FAO. On table 25lbrs are support weapons. They can fire direct or indirect, but are controlled by a local commander, not an FAO. On that basis, doctrinally, they are restricted to firing in support of the command to which they are attached, which restricts ranges. It is AFAIK an attempt to model doctrinal differences between regimental/divisional/army (off table) support and local battalion support on table. The AP capability would be restricted to what the gun can self spot over open sights. So, use of on table 25lbrs is restricted to early war lists up to N Africa, but drops out in NW Europe as they weren't used in that role.

Cheers, Andy

Hi,

Sorry if I am making hard work of this. So, on table infantry and Artillery ranges are pretty much reduced to their direct fire range. Even if they are firing indirect, they still use the reduced range.

Although I used British as an example, the same issue seems to apply to all Nations.

Thanks for assistance.

Regards

B.

The only thing ON TABLE that can use indirect fire are mortars and infantry guns - and as you say they use the ranges and attacks in the army lists/tables and their reduced ranges. Everything else on table uses direct fire.

Your 25pdrs if OFF TABLE will be indirect, so have no range and a simple attack value. If ON TABLE then they use the AP and AT attacks.

I recently played a Sidi Rezegh game (inital British deployment map below) where British battery of 4RHA was below the 3rd escarpment.




As you can see, 4RHA can't actually engage the Germans because they can't be seen from below the 3rd escarpment, so I simply said:

"C Battery 4th Royal Horse Artillery: Command as per F Battery with two 25pdr QF (no transport). Note this unit may be used Vs targets on the third escarpment (at ranges greater than 24" only) as a 'requested' indirect fire asset. Use the command element for the position of the FAO."

The whole scenario is here:

http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/n...

I'm not sure if this helps but it might provide food for thought.

It looks like it was a mistake for me to specifically mention British guns as the question I am asking relates to all nations where they have an artillery piece that can be used either on or off table.

According to the MRB (page 26 "Artillery Support Units", on-table artillery support weapons such as the 25pdr, 105mm, 155mm etc, are treated as "infantry guns".

They should therefore be able to use indirect fire exactly the same as a standard infantry gun.

My (uneducated) view is that direct fire is likely to be more effective but have a much reduced range and indirect less effective but longer ranged. Given that the off-table versions of these guns have, in game terms, no range limit, it seems strange that the on-table versions are so restricted. However, it would appear that this is working as designed (no-one has said otherwise), and this is intentionally done to encourage the use of off-table artillery, rather than on-table, and remove the requirement to have an extra set of stats for artillery firing direct/indirect.

Thanks for replies all.

Regards

B.

Indirect fire in the case of the "infantry guns" and mortars would mean that they only target ONE unit per order to fire - not the template of an off table arty battery.

This came up in a game today. If infantry guns are not restricted in range, they can only hit one target but they get to throw all their dice against that one target. If they are off-table guns, then they get an area affect, but are subject to deviation so may miss their target. This seems to me to make the on table version more powerful than the off-table version, especially as they can target any unit that can be spotted by any unit under the command of the HQ or CO (provided the spotting unit is within 20cm of the commander) whilst off-table artillery can only target units that can be spotted by the FOA. Just to be clear, are infantry guns firing indirectly subject to the ranges given in the army list?

Yes, ranges for on table artillery are restricted to those listed for the weapon.

Cheers, Andy