The Commander Series Forum

So in the errata mortars only fire op fire vs targets that fired in their turn. Fine with that.

But can this be unobserved / indirect ie in the same way you use them with a unit and a command unit in 20 of the former?

Can infantry guns do the same?

We played it that the errata rule referred to directly observed targets and so they could not do unobserved op fire.

I believe it is with LoS from the mortar unit only, but don't have the rulebook or errata to hand, so can't be certain.

Just reread the op fire rules and it does say that you need los, so you can’t use mortars and IGs firing indirect in the raw. That does seem a little counter intuitive. Everyone else can react to enemy fire, but not the mortars?

LOS seems sensible
If you cannot see who's shooting at you how can you fire at them?
Same surely applies to on-table artillery as well?

Need los? You’d think so, but mortars and IGs don’t need it when firing in the command phase. All they need is a a unit does have los, a HQ within 20cm of that observing unit, and then a successful order roll.

My question was really is it an omission, or a bonkers idea so not included?

Would depend on the sophistication of your Comms. Mortars at company level, such as the US 60mm and late war German 80mmk types would almost certainly be firing over open sights, IG's and US 81's would be further back and relying on phones(German) or radio (US). Russians would be entirely open sights, British given the short range of the 3" mortar may be either.

Best way to cover it is a house rule on who can fire what.

I agree about the Command phase Dr D. But then they are under command and so are presumably ordered by an HQ or Recce or FAO or a friendly unit that has LoS.

It's the Ops fire bit that makes it difficult.
If they are under direct attack from an enemy or fired upon by an enemy they can see - then Ops fire seems logical.

But if they are hit by a unit they cannot see - might be obscured by terrain (for example) then even if a friendly unit had LoS will they be able to react quickly enough to count as it being Ops fire. My thoughts are "probably not".

Going forward Ian I'd personally like this kind stuff ironed out ahead of BKC4 coming out later this year

Point taken. “Will they be able to react quickly enough...”

If it's going in the rules then Battalion level mortars can, company ones cant fire op fire indirect, but only in the US and British Armies - British 43 + (date is iffy, depends on sigs available). But that is a few too many rules I think.

It would be better if Batt mortars were treated exactly the same as arty, with out the need for specialist observers (MFC's are distributed at company level), and UK and US arty use rules similar to the NATO ones, that doctrine comes from WWI with Royal Arty, hit it good and hard with all that is in range, and trust the FOO. The US was similar but they put less trust in the observers, so less responsive.

IanS

Why can Battalion level Op fire Ian?

Surely the same issues apply to all types of mortars - it's the ability to react in "Opportunity Fire" that is key.

Personally I think the LoS rule pretty much covers the on-table mortars. Higher caliber tubes are presumably represented as off-table anyway and they certainly should be allowed Op Fire (IMHO)

Note the word INDIRECT, the btn ones should have comms to be observed from the front lines, company ones would be on the company net, and only able to fire observed on the company net, so need los.

Battalion weapons are meant to cover the defensive front of their unit, which could be up to a kilometre, so whilst they would be on table they wont have line of sight to all their targets, so could be used in indirect OP fire. Same applies to German and Russian IG's.

I still think that mortars should be used like arty, firing a barrage once per move. We were trained that 2 81mm mortars were the same against a soft target as 6 105mm howitzers, due to the rate of fire.

Your last sentence is beyond me, off table stuff cant fire op fire under any circumstances. We could add it, using fire point assets, representing in modern terminology DF and FDF fire. Defenders could also call it in on their own position to support against a close assault.

“Higher caliber tubes are presumably represented as off-table anyway and they certainly should be allowed Op Fire (IMHO)”

I’m with Ian here. If you’re suggesting op fire from off table arty then that’s really hard. Especially against moving targets. It’s not where he is, it’s where is he going to be? It takes time for the orders to be sent and often minutes for the shells to arrive. A student once described the grim effect of the timing issue. The white flags had gone up and “check fire” order was sent but the ammo was in flight already.

My two pence

1. Off table kit definitely can not op fire

2. On table kit can op fire if it has LOS

Apologies Gents - a simple omission of the word NOT !!!
We are actually in agreement.

I'm with Shedman here

Thanks - that makes more sense.